The primary benefit of running your own business is being your own boss, and yet so many photographers let their business run their lives. In this Bokeh podcast episode, Matt Grazier shares how he and his wife, Enna, have been proactive in creating a photography business that enables the life they want as they prioritize time with family, working, and time building community in the photography industry.
Read the transcript and show notes
Introduction to Matt Grazier [00:55]
Working on Your Own Terms [02:02]
Creating the Inspire Community [06:17]
The Problems of Being a Destination Wedding Photographer with Family [14:53]
Change Your Brand Position [17:47]
Networking with Wedding Planners [20:27]
Prioritizing Family [22:54]
Creating Tintypes [26:15]
Where to Learn More [29:00]
Nathan – All right, we’re live officially. Or as live as we can be as we’re recording into a microphone and an audio recorder. But I’m here with my friend Matt Grazier and we are here at the Inspire Photo Conference, February 2017. We were just chatting about the conference itself, but it’s a privilege to be here, to be part of something that you and your wife created, how many years ago now?
Matt – This is our eighth season.
Nathan – Eighth season, that is so obviously community-driven. So I wanna get into that here in just a second, but tell us just a little bit about, or us, I say us, the listeners of the Bokeh podcast, a little bit about who you and your wife are and what you guys do.
Matt – Yeah yeah, well Enna and I we met in college in art school literally in photo class. One of our first dates was she came to second shoot a wedding with me.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – Which was kinda funny.
Nathan – Yeah but that had to give kinda interesting insight into the potential of the relationship too.
Matt – It really did, it really did, and then you know from there she I had to sell hard on getting her to convince her to move to Boston with me.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – As we had only been dating for a couple of months when I was moving.
Nathan – Wow.
Matt – So I sold her on that fortunately and we moved to Boston and I finished my schooling and we started the studio right when I finished school. And, it’s just been you know a very idealistic driven journey for us and lifestyle.
Matt – The ideal is to really work on our own terms.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – You know, we wanna be creative and we wanna have a home where we work. You know we don’t wanna be in the lifestyle where we’re commuting to a job.
Nathan – Sure.
Matt – Working for somebody that’s not you know that doesn’t care about us as people if you will just working for somebody who’s on the bottom line.
Nathan – Yeah, well and the simple idea of creating kind of an overlying mission almost or what I refer to as a big picture view. I was chatting with a few photographers during the mentoring sessions last night and we were talking about this idea of establishing a big picture view it drives what you do and your kind of big picture view if you will is this notion of creating a business that enables you to work on your own terms and I think that’s one of the primary benefits of running your own business or it can be, the problem is a lot of times photographers get lost in the minutia the busy work of just trying to keep up without having that overlying goal in mind. So I think that’s really powerful.
Matt – Yeah and you know actually the last time you and I saw each other was at Partner Con 2009.
Nathan – 2009 wow okay, all right.
Matt – That’s the last time we saw each other. And when I was there, Enna and I did the presentation with John and Kim Sanderson from Lancaster, and the presentation was on being married and working together and working from home. And during the talk I actually had the revelation that I never thought about before was that I’m kind of living out the same lifestyle my parents lived. And subconsciously I think I kind of built that lifestyle without even planning for it. And now it just kind of organically happened because in the back of my mind that’s what I wanted and by that I mean I work with my spouse.
Nathan – Right.
Matt – And we work from home.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – And like you said earlier we just kinda of set our own terms my parents are just like that.
Nathan – What type of business do they run?
Matt – Well my father’s a chiropractor.
Nathan – Oh okay.
Matt – And my mom manages his office and is the X-ray technician.
Nathan – Wow, how many years have they been doing that?
Matt – Oh, 50.
Nathan – Wow that’s incredible.
Matt – About 50 years now, yeah. So a little under that. Probably maybe 48, 49. But yeah they’ve been at it for a long time and they’re in their original office still with our house above it.
Nathan – That’s amazing. Did they ever speak to I don’t know two or three principles that have enabled them to have this kind of success over a long-term? Or have you been able to see what drives that?
Matt – Yeah patience.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – Patience, seriously my mom and my dad are two of the most patient people you’d ever meet. And I really think that’s their key. They just when things go bad they step back and take a breath and look at it from a distance and then go back and tackle it.
Nathan – And would you say the patience is shown both in the way that they engage with their business and clients as well as with each other or where does it stand out particularly?
Matt – Oh it’s universal.
Nathan – Everywhere okay.
Matt – Everywhere yeah, and they’re very you know they were also very community driven people. So, you know I grew up coming home from school and my dad on Thursdays all the chiropractors would take the day off in our town. But they would all come over to my dad’s office and hang out and talk about how to help each other. Yeah so they wouldn’t compete, they would help each other and one of ’em were to go on vacation they’d all pick up the patients, but they wouldn’t steal patients they’d all come back to the other office you know what I mean?
Nathan – That’s fascinating.
Matt – And they would do things to help each other out. So that you know.
Nathan – And is that the norm for that particular industry? Or is it normally pretty competitive.
Matt – I honestly don’t know. I mean, I don’t know every chiropractor I’ve ever met has been friends with my father that I’ve met in an intimate setting. And I’ve met them throughout the entire country and they’re always the same style type personality but of course you’re gonna hang out with people that have similar personalities as yourself.
Nathan – Sure sure.
Matt – So I can’t really judge on that chiropractic community in general just the people he surrounds himself with.
Matt – This is our eighth year.
Nathan – This is the eighth year so you had not only had this example in your parents of business owners who created a life for themselves the business that enabled them to work under their own terms I love that the way you sum that up. But you also had an example about somebody who prioritized community which is a great segue related talking about what Inspire seems to be all about.
Matt – Right.
Nathan – There’s an incredible opportunity for photographers to come and learn. A variety of classes a variety of topics that by the way isn’t really centered around kind of the so-called celebrities in the industry it’s more about the education the value of the education and the connection. There’s certainly opportunity for vendors such as myself, photographers edit they come in and be able to share our services with the attendees but ultimately everything seemed very much geared toward community.
Matt – Yeah.
Nathan – So you had this wonderful example in your parents talk about how that translated then to creating Inspire and what was the inspiration behind–
Matt – Yeah well when Enna and I started our photo studio one of the big keys for Enna convincing me to be a full-time wedding photographer was the discovery of Pictage.
Nathan – Yes, and you and I are both members of Pictage back in the day.
Matt – We’re alumni. And what I loved about Pictage was the simplicity, the availability of people to buy images, prints online, and that just simplified the whole ’cause I didn’t wanna open up the traditional wedding studio and film, you know and we were shooting film at the time and so up until the discovery of Pictage being a wedding photographer was very much just a couple a year for people that I knew or word of mouth for somebody. And then as soon as Pictage came out we were in and then Pictage had the pugs. You know, the monthly meetups. And, there’s this Pamela Price was the pug leader in the Boston area and she was wonderful and we’d go to her pugs at her house and she was a great guest. I mean a great host and she called us up one day and said I’m stepping down from the pug leader I just have too much on my plate. And she asked us if we’d take it over and we said sure.
Nathan – Really okay. So I was a pug leader as well so we have that in common, that’s cool.
Matt – So Enna and I were pug leaders for I don’t know eight or so years. And that was kinda the start in us building community in Boston. So we had a really great pug Lens Pro To Go hosted it, Paul has always been a key part of the foundation of the Boston community. Without him it doesn’t exist.
Nathan – And I had a chance to meet him really really great guy.
Matt – Amazing guy.
Nathan – Very committed to the Inspire conference as well sounds like he’d been here most if not all the years that you guys have been doing it.
Matt – He’s been very loyal, good friend. Very supportive, and but you know the community in Boston was one of those interesting communities where you had key players where if one of ’em stepped out you’d almost feel like the community would collapse. We needed everybody in the leadership role. You know you’re talking about probably like eight key people that really held it all together. And they’re still involved today but in different ways.
Nathan – Wow.
Matt – Yeah and so from that we were going so we became the pug leaders and then we were going to conferences we’d go to WPPI we’d go the Partner Con and on a flight home Enna and I were just talking about what we liked and disliked of all the different conferences.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – And then we took out a piece of paper and Enna just started cherry picking like okay if I could build my dream conference I would want this, I’d want this, I’d want this, I’d want this.
Nathan – I love it.
Matt – And I was just like all right that’s cool. And then when you know every Saturday morning we’d get in the car and we’d drive to a wedding. And Enna and I don’t shoot local weddings. So most of our weddings involve at least a two hour one way trip to the wedding with a hotel room or something for the night.
Nathan – Sure.
Matt – So we get a lot of time to talk and dream while we’re driving. And she wouldn’t shut up about this conference dream that she had. She just wouldn’t stop talking about it and it just kept going and going and that’s how Enna is, she gets something in her head and she can’t let it go. And you have to let her make it happen, you know? So one day in the car I just said listen we’re either gonna do this or you’re gonna shut up about it. I mean literally I think that was the exact quote. And she just looked at me she was like well do you wanna do it and I was like yeah. Let’s give it a shot. What do we got to lose? So from that week we sent out an email, Paul at Lens Pro hosted a little meeting. It was about 10 photographers all the key members of the community and people like Carla and whatnot they all drove up from Connecticut and we sat down in a circle and Enna and I pitched ’em Inspire. And I kid you not 12 weeks later we had Inspire with 90 photographers attending. It was insane.
Nathan – 12 weeks.
Matt – 12 weeks, we pulled it off.
Nathan – Most conferences are planning a year in advance right?
Matt – It was just one of those things where Enna and I just said if we’re gonna do it we’re just gonna do it. We’re not gonna mess around. We didn’t have anybody who was speaking on a national level really. The one exception to that was Melissa Guyonas, she came and spoke which was phenomenal. She was a Boston photographer and she’s a sweetheart and she came in and chipped she was all in, supporting us and yeah it was great. And but besides that it was really a lot of trust from the community to come in and listen to these speakers that they really didn’t know that well. They didn’t hear much about ’em. They just weren’t photographers who were putting themselves out on a speaking circuit. These were just very experienced photographers who had great information to share and were willing to share it. And the community bought into that.
Nathan – Yes.
Matt – And that is still the core of Inspire. We’re not, you know, I say we I’m not in the board anymore it’s Enna, Mark, and Eric. So when they’re looking for speakers their number one priorities are two things one how well do they know what they wanna teach, and two are they willing to just come and give it all. Like you know be part of the community for those three days minimum, you know and if we’re lucky enough they’re part of that community for the entire year afterwards.
Nathan – And I think so you met the first requirement that you mentioned was knowing their topic it’s funny how many photographers, talented photographers, that we have in the industry who are presenting speaking but don’t necessarily know the topic well enough to communicate it or maybe communication’s just not a strength of theirs. And so it’s tough to sit and listen so that is an absolutely vital requirement for speakers. Not only do they know their topic well but do they know how to present the information effectively. But then the fact that you asked the photographers to be involved that their so called celebrity that you see in our industry sometimes doesn’t get in the way of connection with people relationships with the people. Being on their level with them and engaging in that community I think that’s so absolutely important and I have to say again that was the vibe that I got being here this is my first time at Inspire. Certainly as a sponsor but also just as an attendee in general and community I mean community rang through the whole conference and it’s really really powerful. So I can’t say enough about that. Kudos to you guys for creating something that’s that powerful, but for those listening who are looking for a conference to go to and need a break from the kind of commercially driven celebrity driven conferences that you see sometimes, this is an incredible opportunity. And you guys already announced the dates for this next year it was February 26th to 28 is that right?
Matt – Yep.
Nathan – For 2018.
Matt – Yep in Newburg Port.
Nathan – By the way we’re literally on an island. I’m looking out the window of my bedroom and I saw a lighthouse I mean that’s the kind of beautiful location that we’re in. So it’s absolutely amazing. Can’t recommend enough, so thank you again for hosting that now just to get back a little bit to your photography business wedding photography is your brand correct that is what you guys do.
Matt – That’s my specialty.
Nathan – And we had a conversation I think it was yesterday you started talking a little about the fact that you used to be more involved in I guess even further destinations. Destination wedding photography was an even bigger deal for your business that was driving some pretty significant revenue. But one of the things that you said yesterday that I don’t know really caught my attention because it’s certainly important to me as a father of two. And then creating and focusing on a brand whether photographers edit that is ultimately about freeing up photographers to spend more time with the important relationships in your life. You said you had kind of a turning point where you realize this business focused on destination wedding photography and being able to go to these beautiful locations and photograph some incredible events it was interfering with family life.
Matt – That’s yeah.
Nathan – So talk to me a little bit about that share with the listeners kind of what that was like to go through that realization and what changes you made.
Matt – Yeah we had lucked out by fortune on having one of our favorite planners refer us to this couple who was getting married at this gorgeous venue down in the Caribbean that was really starting to go after the wedding market. A new ownership of the venue he saw where the money was he wanted to bring in weddings and we were one of the first weddings there after the remodel with new ownership and because of that, we started getting a lot of weddings there and then we started getting a lot of weddings elsewhere. We were going to Mexico, we were going to the Virgin Islands we went as far as Moricious which is 600 miles off the southern tip of South Africa.
Nathan – Oh wow, I’ve never heard of it before.
Matt – I hadn’t either but I got the inquiry I was like Moricious where the hell you know I had to look it up and I was like this can’t be real. And it was this really awesome two lawyers from New York who love to travel and play golf and they had a great golf course at the Four Seasons there and they found us just on an internet search and brought us down and it was awesome but you know right around that time, that was kind of the peak of our destination career if you will, international destination.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – That winter I was gone a lot and Enna was gone with me a lot. There were a few weddings I shot without her but almost all of ’em she was with me.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – And you know her mom is a sweetheart and she would come and stay with the boys while we were gone and what happened was we came home and our older son Ollie who was young at the time started having a really bad attitude. I mean and not being mean to other people but just to myself and Enna in the sense of who are you to tell me what to do.
Nathan – Interesting.
Matt – And I don’t think he realized it and he was a long way from being a teenager. But he had that attitude of you know I don’t wanna go to bed right now and you can’t make me. I don’t wanna eat my dinner and you can’t make me. And there were a lot of tears from him a lot of fighting, and Enna and I got talking about it and I said we’re the problem. Number one I was like think about it we just sent four months flying all over the world coming home for a couple of days and then packing up and then going again. And that was how that winter went for us. And I said you know the kid just feels neglected and he doesn’t even know that but he’s just mad at us, you know. And I said this just isn’t worth it. You know we sat down we talked about it and we decided to change our marketing and we said you know what we’re gonna take a lot of emphasis off the travel and just put it back into the local region and if we pick up one destination wedding a year that’s cool. But we decided we’d rather just spend time with our kids more and just be gone one maybe two days a week on the weekends through the summer. But still be home five days a week for them. And it was a lesson, and one that I’m very glad we caught onto early you know?
Nathan – And how did you see that effect your family I mean did you see an immediate result did it take a little bit of time?
Matt – No no no it was pretty immediate. As soon as we stopped traveling a lot, we kind of the summer was like every other summer where we were home if you will five days a week with the boys and we’d gone on the weekends shooting. But then when the next winter came and this is the key when school started up again and we had to get back in the routine of homework and dinner on time and all of that I was very being very observant of it. And to make sure that Ollie was being happy. And he was it was great. He immediately just it was nice, it was just a back to seeing the kid being happy so.
Nathan – But yet again this is a great example of how you there’s a big idea driving the direction of your business right, rather than you kind of functioning haphazardly now the priority is my family. Connection with my family, time for my family, and that drove what you did. How did you change just so some of the photographers listening in they may be kind of curious how do we make that transition in our marketing message? How did you make that change for yourself? Was it on the website, communication with local vendors or how did that work?
Matt – Yeah it wasn’t too drastic.
Matt – The networking with the local wedding planners was key.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – I prefer to network with wedding planners than venues.
Nathan – Yes.
Matt – More because I love shooting at different locations as often as I can. I find that exciting, I find it cool, you never know who you’re gonna meet. You never know where you’re gonna end up. And so we love working with event planners that also kind of have that same mentality of like let’s do something exciting. You know, they could know the ballroom downtown inside and out and book a wedding there every weekend and be whatever. I love the event planners who are like that’ll be really difficult to do, let’s make it happen. You know and then put a tent up in a crazy place or something you know or build a deck out in the field so they can put a tent out there. I mean just awesome stuff and I love that.
Nathan – And I think it’s really important too that the wedding coordinator I know I found when I was in wedding photography myself that the wedding coordinator that’s kinda where it all starts in many cases. And the cool thing is even if you decide to change your price point for example. As you change your price point you go from let’s say 3,000 to 4,000 or 4,000 to five whatever the case may be, if you’re simply reliant on word of mouth referral from previous clients who may no longer be in that market segment or income bracket, you can’t rely on referrals from those clients. You’ve got this wedding coordinator who is quite aware of where your brand is, what it stands for, the price point and they can refer accordingly which is really really powerful.
Matt – It’s so true and you know what I really love about working with the event planners are that almost you know every year they always ask me for my updated price list because they expect your prices to go up. And I love that, I love that about my planners we work with. And they encourage it if you will they’re like yeah we should all be doing well. And instead of being the type of event planner who’s like will you give my client a discount? No as soon as they do that I don’t wanna work with ’em again because I’m just like no I got a family to support. I’m not a wealthy person.
Nathan – Well and the fact that they’re enabling you to grow your business in that way is really powerful I know that we worked with a coordinator who would literally come to our office and sit.
Matt – Yeah.
Nathan – Right here in our office, I didn’t have to say a thing. She was so excited about our business and promoting our business that she would do the selling for me and they’d book and on we’d go.
Matt – Yeah.
Nathan – But those kinds of relationships are really powerful and focusing our effort and time it’s easy to get distracted by a lot of busy work again running a photography business there’s so many moving parts but focusing much of our effort on those relationships that drive business such a valuable move so that’s really cool to hear. Just to kinda close out this focus that you’ve put out or the conversation about the focus that you put out, put on connection with family what does a week look like for you guys? How do you prioritize family and balance that with work?
Matt – I mean for us we always try to find adventure time. And it’s not something we do a lot of but we try to three or four good adventures here and by that I mean packing up the car, hitting the road, going someplace and seeing something you know whether it’s a road trip down to DC or going up to the mountains to hike or something or a ski trip you know. We try to always find a cool ski house for the boys and do stuff like that. So those are really big moments for us as a family because that’s where the stories really develop you know?
Nathan – Yeah the experiences, yeah.
Matt – The experiences and the things we always laugh about. But on a weekly basis we’re pretty much the boys are now at an age where they’re fairly independent. They get themselves up in the morning and off to school on their own which is just amazing for us you know. After any parent who’s raised kids knows that’s a milestone.
Nathan – And school starts so early these days it blows my mind yeah.
Matt – It does yeah so they’ll go to school come home and then the after schools are pretty busy we have Ollie and Enna both do Aikido so they practice together.
Nathan – That’s so cool she was telling me about that.
Matt – Without each other sometimes they go together, but they do Aikido a couple times a week. Our younger son Will is a hardcore soccer guy. He’s on two teams, just insane.
Nathan – It is the best sport just by the way FYI.
Matt – I’m learning it, I’m learning it.
Nathan – I played all the way into college so yeah that’s cool.
Matt – You know and then I’ve got just my own stuff going on. Enna’s making chocolate in the house we have a commercial license that’s been a new passion for her.
Nathan – I got to sample that last night and it was absolutely amazing.
Matt – It’s great.
Nathan – Incredible, what is the website so people can find her online?
Matt – It’s just her name Enna, E-N-N-A Chocolate.
Nathan – Dot com.
Matt – Yeah.
Nathan – Perfect you guys absolutely have to check it out if you have any interest in chocolate.
Matt – You can mail order it.
Nathan – And we’re not just talking about some run of the mill chocolate I mean there’s a back story to this that’s incredible so I’m sure they can find that information on the website.
Matt – Oh yeah and she’s got some of the top chefs in the area ordering her chocolate for their restaurants and it’s just flattering yeah.
Nathan – That’s amazing.
Matt – Yeah so we’ve got that and the boys are our older boy Ollie is naturally into the arts. Without being pushed. So he loves to draw and take pictures and do video. So a lot of the time in the week is Ollie actually hanging out with us. So he’ll actually if I set up the tintype stuff he’ll make tintypes with me. Which is awesome, you know he’ll put on the goggles and the gloves and the apron and he can make a tintype and I mean he’s 12 years old. And he knows the digital cameras inside and out so he’s got his little a really nice laptop that he can edit on. He’ll bring it in and hang out and it’s really funny, you know it’s cool.
Nathan – Well the fact that you have that space to I don’t know you’re getting a little bit of work done but also connecting with your son is really powerful. That’s really neat. And you’re enabling him too to explore that artistic side. The tintypes you were sharing a little bit of your experience with creating tintypes and I think you showed me a few examples of them as well. Working with even something as big as a 16 by 20 camera is mind blowing to me.
Matt – Yeah well you know I did for my birthday Enna got me a workshop with John Coffer who’s really huge in the world of tintypes.
Nathan – Right.
Matt – Very interesting gentleman. Nice guy and I spent three days with him out at his farm, and he makes 20 by 20 four inch tintypes.
Nathan – Wow.
Matt – They call ’em mammoth plates and I hadn’t made one in person and I still haven’t made one but this other fella John who was there retired Vietnam vet really sweet guy. He made some 20 by 20 for us and I documented that for them. I had my camera out and took some photos so it was his first time.
Nathan – That’s amazing.
Matt – Yeah yeah I really wanted to do one but I was like it’s a big investment and I was like I’m gonna wait, I’ll come back another time when I have more of an idea of what I want to hang on my wall that’s 20 by 24 inches.
Nathan – Sure yeah yeah.
Matt – You know, which is what the other guy did actually. He had been to the workshop once before and decided I’m gonna wait, think about it, and then come back and do it you know? And he made gorgeous plates it was awesome.
Nathan – But it’s a fascinating artistic outlet that you have. So you’ve got a business to run and there’s again a lot of moving parts to running a business but to have an artistic outlet like that where you’re doing something that’s a bit unique, actually extremely unique in fact, it gives you that outlet. Kinda take a break from what can seem like the mundane day to day activities of running a business, that’s really really great.
Matt – I need it because I was a dark room photographer. Starting out, I loved the dark room. And I’ve always dreamed of having a dark room at my house. The house that we ended up purchasing is a little too small for a dark room unless I sacrifice space for the kids. And, so I can’t remember how it came about but one day I was just like you know I don’t need a dark room to do tintypes.
Nathan – Okay.
Matt – You know you can work out you do need a dark room if you will but it can be pretty you know I use an ice fishing tent.
Nathan – And you were showing me this mobile setup it’s small enough you can put in the back of your car right?
Matt – Yeah yeah it all folds. I mean on the back of a Mazda 3 hatchback.
Nathan – Wow wow.
Matt – So I got my dark room if you will the ice fishing tent packs in there. And all my gear chemicals and everything I can hit the road and just make tintypes anywhere literally it’s awesome.
Nathan – That’s amazing. Well I have to thank you for making time for sitting down and sharing, certainly what you’re doing with the photography business but it captured my attention yesterday when you started sharing about the priority that you’ve put on family and putting that over running a business and certainly being able to do just fancy destination weddings is incredible it looks great in your portfolio. There’s some financial benefit to it but the fact that you prioritize family and relationships in the end over that, it speaks so powerfully to well you your character, and the priority that you and Enna put on community and connection which is also reflected in this retreat which has been really incredible so thank you for taking time to share a little bit about that.
Matt – Awesome.
Nathan – Talk to our listeners about where they can find first of all information about the Inspire retreat.
Matt – Yeah.
Nathan – And then also your photography work.
Matt – Yeah well InspirePhotoRetreats.com is the website, has all the information there. Has videos from past years and such and you can really get a good sense of the conference.
Nathan – And it’s the same thing on Instagram yes? Inspire Photo Retreat.
Matt – Correct, yep, with an S at the end.
Nathan – Okay retreats.
Matt – Inspire Photo Retreats yep and then our work is at GrazierPhotography.com it’s like Fraizer with a G.
Nathan – Simple enough, and how about on Instagram you guys on Instagram?
Matt – Yep, Enna has her Enna Chocolate one. We have Grazier Photo and then my personal one is Mattion M-A-T-T-I-O-N.
Nathan – Perfect.
Matt – I just put a if you’re a Star Wars nerd you might get that.
Nathan – No yes. I love it that’s great. Well you guys make sure to go online take a look at what Inspire has to offer. Make sure that you take a look at Matt and his work including Enna’s chocolate. Again I can’t recommend it enough. I was just telling Enna that I’m gonna be ordering it to give as gifts to people so it’s absolutely amazing. Thanks again for sitting down Matt. We appreciate your time, thank you.